Saturday, July 9, 2011

On the Subject of GIRM #43: The Kneeling Question

For this post, my comments are in red, and the quotations are in black

Since the Third Edition of the GIRM with adaptations for Canada has been released I will re work this and the other articles

They will include now, The Typical LATIN,  MY translation of the Latin, and the GIRM as APPROVED for Canada

43. Fideles stent ab initio cantus ad introitum, vel dum sacerdos accedit ad altare, usque ad collectam inclusive; ad cantum Allelúia ante Evangelium; dum ipsum Evangelium proclamatur; dum professio fidei et oratio universalis fiunt; necnon ab invitatione Oráte fratres ante orationem super oblata usque ad finem Missae, praeter ea quae infra dicuntur.

The faithful stand from the beginning of the introit chant until the celebrant ascends the altar and pronounces the collect (opening Prayer): during the singing of the Alleluia before the Gospel; while the Gospel is being proclaimed; during the recitation of the Profession of Faith and while the Prayers of the Faithful are made; and again at the invitation: Pray Brethren before the Prayer over the gifts until the end of Mass, except as stated below.

Sedeant autem dum proferuntur lectiones ante Evangelium et psalmus responsorius; ad homiliam et dum fit praeparatio donorum ad offertorium; atque, pro opportunitate, dum sacrum silentium post Communionem servatur.

They sit during the Readings before the Gospel and the Responsorial Psalm; during the Homily and the preparation of the gifts at the offertory, and if opportune, during the post communion silence.

Genuflectant vero, nisi valetudinis causa, vel ob angustiam loci vel frequentiorem numerum adstantium aliasve rationabiles causas impediantur, ad consecrationem. Hi vero qui non genuflectunt ad consecrationem, inclinationem profundam peragant dum sacerdos genuflectit post consecrationem.

The Faithful kneel at the consecration, as long as they are not impeded by health, limitation of space, of large numbers of faithful present, or other reasonable motives. Those who do not (can not) kneel at the consecration, make a profound (deep) bow when the celebrant genuflects after the consecration.

Est tamen Conferentiae Episcoporum, gestus et corporis habitus in Ordine Missae descriptos ingenio et rationabilibus populorum traditionibus ad normam iuris aptare. [53] Attendendum tamen erit, ut sensui et indoli cuiusque partis celebrationis respondeant. Ubi mos est, populum ab acclamatione Sanctus expleta usque ad finem Precis eucharisticae et ante Communionem quando sacerdos dicit Ecce Agnus Dei genuflexum manere, hic laudabiliter retinetur.

It is up to the Episcopal Conferences to adapt the gestures and attitudes of the body (postures) described in the Rite of the Mass, to the culture and reasonable traditions of the various peoples according to the norms of rights [53]. Nevertheless these adaptations should be made in a manner that such adaptations correspond to the sense and character of each part of the celebration. Where it is the habit that the people remain kneeling from the Proclamation of the Sanctus to the End of the Eucharistic Prayer(Great Amen) and before Communion, when the Celebrant announces the This is the Lamb of God, such a practice is laudably to be conserved.

Ad uniformitatem in gestibus et corporis habitibus in una eademque celebratione obtinendam, fideles monitionibus obtemperent, quas diaconus, vel minister laicus, vel sacerdos proferunt, iuxta ea quae in Missali statuuntur.

To obtain uniformity in gestures and postures in the same celebration, the faithful follow the instructions of the Deacon, or a lay minister, or the celebrant given according to the established norms of the Missal.

53 Cf. ibidem, n. 40; Congr. de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum, Instr. Varietates legitimæ, diei 25 ianuarii 1994, n. 41: A.A.S. 87 (1995) p. 304.

So, the original Latin GIRM does NOT require kneeling from the Sanctus to the Great Amen, as has been the norm in parts of English Canada since 1975. That is an English Canada adaptation. The French Canadian tradition of kneeling up until the Mysterium Fidei (after the Consecration), is perfectly within the original terms of the GIRM. Further, the original Latin grants authority to lay ministers, as well as deacons and priests to direct the faithful during the Mass, according to the NORMS established.

It would seem that at least some of what are being decried as horrible “adaptations” requested by the CCCB are actually true to the original GIRM before translation.


Vox Cantoris said...

Sorry, you are incorrect. While the 1975 GIRM does indeed state what you have written, that is not what was approved or what the tradition was of the people.

The tradition of kneeling is adoration and worship of the Blessed Sacrament and belief in the Real Presence. Led orendi, les credendi. In 1975 everyone knelt, they did from the previous Missal. This was never changed in most of the country until the 1980's when certain liturgists demanded people off of their knees as we are now an "Easter People" and our song is "Alleluia."

We need more kneeling, not less.

I find it unfortunate that you prefer to mock me for reporting on the facts rather than point to the issue of kneeling.

The bishops are simply not infallible and the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops has no canonical authority, you know this.

If priest or bishops force existing kneeling communities off of their knees then they are doing the work of the Satan, that is the truth and it can't be expressed any more charitably.

The bishops in Canada have been a liturgical disaster. The bishops of Ontario have been weak on the matter of GSA's and standing up to the government. Yet, you believe it is right to demand that me, a blogger is the problem.

You need to be honest. For weeks you have slandered me and people know who it is you are referring to. You should at least be honest and state that it is me you are slamming and insulting. This is very uncharitable on your part.

I have reported facts. Where I have not revealed my sources is for obvious reasons, I have been asked not to.

You can choose not to believe it, that is your choice. You can choose to disagree.

But, you are not free to continue to slander me publicly on your blog and get away with it.

Talk about an apology.


Vox Cantoris said...

Now, if we can get to the issue.

For twenty years, there has been a diversity of kneeling postures in Canada. This is because the 1975 GIRM universally was very loose in this regard. There as never a rubric in the Tridentine liturgy for the liturgical posture for the people. Therefore, this was the first time it was every officially regulated.

The issue now is that the United States and Britain, have approved the most traditional posture, that which we also follow in Toronto and most of Ontario. The Holy Father is going in a direction, it is obvious that the Canadian bishops want to go in another.

So, whom should we follow Puff?

This is not the Canadian Catholic Church it is the Catholic Church.

If we end up in a schism, do you choose to follow the Archbishop of your diocese if he breaks with Rome because he is the "high priest" of liturgy or the "Pope" in his diocese, as I've heard our say?

But in all this the fundamentaly question and point is being missed.

"Tis God, tis God, the very God..."

That phrase in the hymn Jesus My LORD, My God, MY All says it all.

It is God. How can we do any less than to kneel?

How can bishops or liturgists suggest we do anything else but kneel.

The fact is that many no longer believe. In Toronto, there is quite outrage and "fear" that over 225 attended an EF on Corpus Christi and 600 on Sacred Heart.

Why? What do they fear?

History has shown us that it is often the laity that have risen up to fight for the Church.

I will obey no bishop that tells me not to kneel.

Do you remember the case in Antigonish when six people were dragged out of church and arrested for kneeling at Communion?

If their request to canonise this diversification of kneeling is approved than it is the duty of bishops where "laudable practice" is in place to never interfere with it.

I for one, belive that what should be approved is that which was approved for the U.S and G.B. as noted.

If you believe, you kneel.

And obedience to a bishop in this regard does not trump that.

Puff, how many churches do you go in and wonder what happened to them, how much destruction.

It is the same thing with this.

If we had blogs and FB 45 years ago, would they have gotten away with it then?

The churches are empty, it is not standing that will bring people back, it is prayer and solemnity and dignity in the liturgy and true worship and kneeling and adoration and sacrifice.

Bear-i-tone said...

None of this was the issue being addressed in this post, Vox. The issue is to show what the GIRM says, in the original Latin, as opposed to what people say it is saying.

You are claiming we need more kneeling. I agree. You are claiming the Canadian bishops are close to schism, if not actual schism. That is not true as far as this issue i concerned. Their requests are within the original GIRM. What you are requesting is not, although the GIRM does permit it. We may agree or disagree with bishops who choose one or another, but both choices are valid within the original, unadapted GIRM.

Bear-i-tone said...

Lastly, not every post on this blog is a personal attack levelled against you. This post, as I said, was a simple deire to see what the GIRM really said, in the original, as opposed to the national GIRMs complete with regional adaptations say, and also opposed to whagt blogs, including but not solely yours, say the GIRM says.

I aided Puff in her translation, and I would not have taken part in this project if I believed its sole purpose was to issue a personal attack against you or any other blogger. The truth, Vox, is not an insult.

It is time you took my suggestion of weeks ago, and stop reading this blog if it offends you at every single turn.

Puff the Magic Dragon said...

The GIRM I am translating is NOT the 1975 version it is the latest Edition of the GIRM promulgated in 2002, by John Paul the Second. The one to be implemented with the new translation this November. It is the one that the Bishops are to implement now.

Puff the Magic Dragon said...

Vox, You are right. The line about apologies possibly being necessary could be inflammatory, so I have removed the offending phrase.

As for the entire exercise, the idea of looking at the Typical Latin Edition of the LATEST GIRM, came from something that Ignorant Redneck said. He said that in the case where there is no clear cut uniform posture, shouldn't the original Typical Latin Edition of the Latest GIRM be the the rule? So I went searching for what the latest GIRM said in it's original form before the Adaptations were requested or added.

The post is the result of that.

I am in the process of translating the Typical 3rd Edition of 2002, so that when the Canadian version becomes available I can clearly see what adaptations were requested and approved for the Canadian Bishops.

The Next up will be the Preamble.

Scripture to keep in mind

Six things there are, which the Lord hateth, and the seventh his soul detesteth: [17] Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, [18] A heart that deviseth wicked plots, feet that are swift to run into mischief, [19]A deceitful witness that uttereth lies, and him that soweth discord among brethren. [20] My son, keep the commandments of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother. ***Cf:Douay-Rheims Proverbs 6: 16-20


I declare that I have no intent to acknowledge, distribute or encourage anything contrary to Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church and the Apostolic See. I submit myself and all the contents of this blog to the judgment of the Church.